1 00:00:08,270 --> 00:00:05,329 welcome to tales from the rabbit hole 2 00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:08,280 I'm your host Nick West my guest today 3 00:00:14,810 --> 00:00:12,120 is Nick Pope Nick Pope is an expat rich 4 00:00:18,140 --> 00:00:14,820 just like me and he is a British 5 00:00:20,870 --> 00:00:18,150 journalist and media commentator who is 6 00:00:23,570 --> 00:00:20,880 very well known for writing about the 7 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:23,580 UFO phenomena he used to work for the 8 00:00:29,450 --> 00:00:27,420 British government and handled UFO 9 00:00:31,490 --> 00:00:29,460 reports for the British government so 10 00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:31,500 Nick welcome to tales from the rabbit 11 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:34,440 hole thank you thank you very much for 12 00:00:38,420 --> 00:00:35,760 being here so it's great it's like 13 00:00:42,650 --> 00:00:38,430 obviously a very interesting time in the 14 00:00:47,180 --> 00:00:42,660 UFO and alien enthusiasts world and I 15 00:00:50,299 --> 00:00:47,190 hear you just got back from area 51 yes 16 00:00:54,410 --> 00:00:50,309 indeed I was covering the whole let's 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:54,420 storm internet doc next let's storm area 18 00:01:00,319 --> 00:00:57,930 51 that the internet meme Road I was 19 00:01:03,039 --> 00:01:00,329 covering that for an upcoming TV show 20 00:01:06,170 --> 00:01:03,049 and I spent three days up there 21 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:06,180 interviewing and meeting event 22 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:10,020 organisers performers speakers cops 23 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:13,740 local people and attendees to just take 24 00:01:18,530 --> 00:01:15,960 the temperature and see what was going 25 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:18,540 on and it was very interesting what so 26 00:01:23,749 --> 00:01:20,880 what what types of people were actually 27 00:01:26,179 --> 00:01:23,759 turning up there it's interesting it was 28 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:26,189 fundamentally different to the average 29 00:01:33,740 --> 00:01:29,850 UFO conference and and it was much more 30 00:01:35,510 --> 00:01:33,750 the festival crowd and I think part of 31 00:01:39,530 --> 00:01:35,520 that was obviously the fact that the 32 00:01:42,770 --> 00:01:39,540 initial let's storm area51 33 00:01:46,010 --> 00:01:42,780 plan or joke or however you characterize 34 00:01:47,929 --> 00:01:46,020 it had by that time evolved into well 35 00:01:50,929 --> 00:01:47,939 let's not do that for very good reasons 36 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:50,939 let's let's instead try to capitalize on 37 00:01:56,510 --> 00:01:53,729 that interest by by running some sort of 38 00:02:00,429 --> 00:01:56,520 event and in the end actually it turned 39 00:02:04,429 --> 00:02:00,439 out to be three events one in downtown 40 00:02:07,730 --> 00:02:04,439 Las Vegas one in the town of Rachel and 41 00:02:09,589 --> 00:02:07,740 the other in the town of heiko so so it 42 00:02:12,140 --> 00:02:09,599 got the festival crowd there were more 43 00:02:16,509 --> 00:02:12,150 young people there were more people who 44 00:02:19,759 --> 00:02:16,519 I suppose would I count as part 45 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:19,769 activists part just people who wanted to 46 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:22,830 turn up see what was going on and wanted 47 00:02:27,860 --> 00:02:25,200 to be a part of something I think yeah 48 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:27,870 it sounded like like you say it was kind 49 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:29,970 of like the festival type thing 50 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:33,329 the average MUFON conference where a 51 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:36,690 bunch of people but you know average age 52 00:02:41,869 --> 00:02:38,610 is probably at the higher end of the 53 00:02:45,349 --> 00:02:41,879 spectrum a lot of retirees a lot of the 54 00:02:46,789 --> 00:02:45,359 same faces so this was something this 55 00:02:49,699 --> 00:02:46,799 was something new and I think that's 56 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:49,709 that's interesting in what it maybe says 57 00:02:54,349 --> 00:02:52,590 about this subject where it is where it 58 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:54,359 might be heading do you think it's 59 00:02:59,210 --> 00:02:56,510 indicative though of a new generation 60 00:03:01,970 --> 00:02:59,220 interested in the same type of UFO 61 00:03:05,869 --> 00:03:01,980 things or is it a shift in kind of UFOs 62 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:05,879 in culture I don't know I mean I think 63 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:08,310 we are and I'm sure we will get on to 64 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:11,090 discuss this we are probably in a new 65 00:03:17,539 --> 00:03:14,010 position now to the position we were in 66 00:03:19,699 --> 00:03:17,549 around 18 months ago anyway because of 67 00:03:23,259 --> 00:03:19,709 the revelations about the Pentagon's a 68 00:03:27,379 --> 00:03:23,269 tip program the US Navy encounters 69 00:03:30,129 --> 00:03:27,389 congressional interest in all that so so 70 00:03:33,319 --> 00:03:30,139 I think things we're changing anyway 71 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:33,329 this this kind of came from left field 72 00:03:37,699 --> 00:03:35,910 and I don't know I don't know whether it 73 00:03:41,150 --> 00:03:37,709 is is going to be something that will 74 00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:41,160 last and grow and evolve year-on-year or 75 00:03:45,819 --> 00:03:43,440 whether it was just one of those rather 76 00:03:48,949 --> 00:03:45,829 unusual totally impossible to predict 77 00:03:50,990 --> 00:03:48,959 internet memes that that maybe can't be 78 00:03:52,729 --> 00:03:51,000 repeated yeah it certainly seems to kind 79 00:03:56,439 --> 00:03:52,739 of grow out of nothing it was just a 80 00:03:59,330 --> 00:03:56,449 bunch of jokes and quite amusing memes 81 00:04:01,009 --> 00:03:59,340 start at a start but then I think a few 82 00:04:03,170 --> 00:04:01,019 people can took it seriously not very 83 00:04:05,390 --> 00:04:03,180 many obviously but and even the people 84 00:04:08,150 --> 00:04:05,400 who were there I guess weren't exactly 85 00:04:10,939 --> 00:04:08,160 taking it seriously in terms of storming 86 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:10,949 area 51 they were just thinking yeah 87 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:13,560 we'll go there and have a good time yes 88 00:04:21,050 --> 00:04:17,190 I think very few people were going there 89 00:04:22,490 --> 00:04:21,060 I wouldn't even say it was a protest you 90 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:22,500 know you can have an argument about 91 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:24,270 whether some of this is is a 92 00:04:28,820 --> 00:04:26,430 protest against government secrecy or 93 00:04:32,450 --> 00:04:28,830 perceived government secrecy on this 94 00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:32,460 issue I think it was more half festival 95 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:34,470 half you know this is something 96 00:04:40,460 --> 00:04:37,860 interesting and different half I want to 97 00:04:43,010 --> 00:04:40,470 be is its I've heard it described as 98 00:04:44,749 --> 00:04:43,020 almost like a Burning Man for UFOs I 99 00:04:46,309 --> 00:04:44,759 suppose there are people looking back 100 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:46,319 who wish they'd been to the first 101 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:48,990 Burning Man which according to some 102 00:04:53,990 --> 00:04:51,150 accounts was simply eight people on a 103 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:54,000 beach somewhere so so maybe there was an 104 00:04:58,700 --> 00:04:56,490 element of that yeah well guess we'll 105 00:05:01,129 --> 00:04:58,710 see if it pans out in years to come 106 00:05:02,990 --> 00:05:01,139 did you kind of talk to people on the 107 00:05:08,469 --> 00:05:03,000 other side I said the guards or the 108 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:08,479 local officials in the area yes I - and 109 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:11,130 talked to several cops and security 110 00:05:16,850 --> 00:05:14,130 people and interviewed a a couple of 111 00:05:19,129 --> 00:05:16,860 them and it was clear there was 112 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:19,139 something of a charm offensive going on 113 00:05:24,170 --> 00:05:21,960 there I don't know whether they have or 114 00:05:26,270 --> 00:05:24,180 will ever release it under the Freedom 115 00:05:30,230 --> 00:05:26,280 of Information Act but clearly there was 116 00:05:34,309 --> 00:05:30,240 an integrated multi-agency contingency 117 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:34,319 plan for this involving the US military 118 00:05:40,430 --> 00:05:38,360 the the police and various other 119 00:05:42,620 --> 00:05:40,440 stakeholders in terms of the local 120 00:05:44,779 --> 00:05:42,630 community and I don't think anyone was 121 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:44,789 realistically ever expecting three 122 00:05:50,149 --> 00:05:47,610 million people to go it's it's easy to 123 00:05:52,939 --> 00:05:50,159 click going on Facebook it's much more 124 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:52,949 difficult to actually go with something 125 00:05:59,510 --> 00:05:55,740 so so remote I think I timed it as over 126 00:06:01,550 --> 00:05:59,520 a two-hour drive from Las Vegas to get 127 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:01,560 there yeah and of course there's nothing 128 00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:04,650 there there's Rachael has somewhere 129 00:06:10,189 --> 00:06:08,190 between population 49 and fifty three 130 00:06:13,999 --> 00:06:10,199 depending on which census you look at I 131 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:14,009 think and and there's there's no grocery 132 00:06:18,379 --> 00:06:16,529 store there's no gas station there's no 133 00:06:19,969 --> 00:06:18,389 real infrastructure for this sort of 134 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:19,979 thing so it was quite a quite an 135 00:06:24,409 --> 00:06:21,990 achievement but yes I spoke to the 136 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:24,419 people and that one point they were 137 00:06:28,309 --> 00:06:26,370 worried I think that maybe maybe they'd 138 00:06:30,350 --> 00:06:28,319 have somewhere like 30,000 people 139 00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:30,360 turning up and that would have stretched 140 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:33,870 things beyond breaking point there's an 141 00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:35,490 argument about how many people actually 142 00:06:38,119 --> 00:06:37,680 went I'm not sure if we'll ever know for 143 00:06:39,649 --> 00:06:38,129 sure 144 00:06:42,649 --> 00:06:39,659 because they were split between multiple 145 00:06:45,979 --> 00:06:42,659 sites I think I think somewhere between 146 00:06:48,079 --> 00:06:45,989 five and ten thousand perhaps but it's 147 00:06:50,239 --> 00:06:48,089 difficult how do you how do you count 148 00:06:52,489 --> 00:06:50,249 the people who turn up on a Friday and 149 00:06:53,029 --> 00:06:52,499 then turn up again on the Sunday I don't 150 00:06:55,159 --> 00:06:53,039 know 151 00:06:57,469 --> 00:06:55,169 yeah this is funny like you talk about 152 00:07:01,009 --> 00:06:57,479 people just clicking on on the buttons I 153 00:07:03,290 --> 00:07:01,019 have a niece in England it was like 15 154 00:07:06,379 --> 00:07:03,300 years old and she she said she was going 155 00:07:09,019 --> 00:07:06,389 but obviously she does clip so people 156 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:09,029 around the world have been interested in 157 00:07:12,799 --> 00:07:11,610 it but obviously yeah it's so as wellis 158 00:07:15,579 --> 00:07:12,809 yeah like I say it will be interesting 159 00:07:18,109 --> 00:07:15,589 alright and yeah so you mentioned a 160 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:18,119 couple of minutes ago about you know how 161 00:07:24,019 --> 00:07:20,849 things have changed over the last 18 162 00:07:27,469 --> 00:07:24,029 months and I think it was michio kaku 163 00:07:32,179 --> 00:07:27,479 recently said that the burden of proof 164 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:32,189 has shifted from people proving that 165 00:07:36,949 --> 00:07:34,289 UFOs are real to the military proving 166 00:07:40,189 --> 00:07:36,959 that they are not something unusual 167 00:07:43,009 --> 00:07:40,199 would you agree with with that well I I 168 00:07:45,919 --> 00:07:43,019 was I was actually there in Barcelona 169 00:07:47,629 --> 00:07:45,929 when he said that we were we were 170 00:07:50,179 --> 00:07:47,639 speaking at the same event and I 171 00:07:51,739 --> 00:07:50,189 actually sat down and we sat in the 172 00:07:54,949 --> 00:07:51,749 restaurant for about two hours 173 00:07:58,100 --> 00:07:54,959 afterwards and and had a chat about all 174 00:08:00,290 --> 00:07:58,110 this I I must say I was surprised to 175 00:08:03,499 --> 00:08:00,300 hear him say that the burden of proof 176 00:08:05,659 --> 00:08:03,509 had reversed because I thought I you 177 00:08:08,269 --> 00:08:05,669 know I'm not a scientist myself but I 178 00:08:09,799 --> 00:08:08,279 had to say I could suspect that some of 179 00:08:13,489 --> 00:08:09,809 his scientific colleagues might be 180 00:08:15,799 --> 00:08:13,499 bristling at that that reversal where I 181 00:08:17,869 --> 00:08:15,809 think he is absolutely right is that the 182 00:08:21,559 --> 00:08:17,879 landscape has changed and that we were 183 00:08:25,059 --> 00:08:21,569 in a rather different place now and that 184 00:08:29,449 --> 00:08:25,069 this has been elevated beyond just 185 00:08:32,209 --> 00:08:29,459 hearsay and and crazy conspiracy 186 00:08:34,399 --> 00:08:32,219 websites so it's it's taken to a new 187 00:08:36,769 --> 00:08:34,409 level whether whether the burden of 188 00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:36,779 proof is reversed or not I I think is a 189 00:08:42,499 --> 00:08:40,110 question for scientists and if if that's 190 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:42,509 his opinion as a leading scientist then 191 00:08:48,079 --> 00:08:44,850 that's fine and I'm sure it's not 192 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:48,089 universally held but we I listen to his 193 00:08:51,470 --> 00:08:50,730 his presentation in Barcelona where he 194 00:08:53,509 --> 00:08:51,480 said 195 00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:53,519 that remark and I think he repeated 196 00:08:57,259 --> 00:08:55,230 there afterwards in some media 197 00:09:00,170 --> 00:08:57,269 interviews and and of course as I say I 198 00:09:05,449 --> 00:09:00,180 I was able to discuss this this whole a 199 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:05,459 tip US Navy video associated dia papers 200 00:09:11,329 --> 00:09:08,570 and business with him afterwards and and 201 00:09:14,210 --> 00:09:11,339 fascinating conversation it was yeah I'm 202 00:09:16,069 --> 00:09:14,220 sure I kind of I'm one of the people who 203 00:09:18,230 --> 00:09:16,079 would disagree with him about it being a 204 00:09:19,610 --> 00:09:18,240 a game changer because he you spoke 205 00:09:20,870 --> 00:09:19,620 about you 206 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:20,880 obviously you heard it and he spoke 207 00:09:25,790 --> 00:09:23,550 about you know science requiring 208 00:09:28,340 --> 00:09:25,800 evidence that is testable and repeatable 209 00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:28,350 and falsifiable and he said that we now 210 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:31,920 have that with with these videos and he 211 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:33,810 because he thinks that the video show 212 00:09:38,629 --> 00:09:36,930 craft that are performing maneuvers that 213 00:09:40,699 --> 00:09:38,639 you know can it break the normal 214 00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:40,709 understanding of aerodynamics and 215 00:09:45,769 --> 00:09:43,500 whatnot have you spent much time looking 216 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:45,779 at these these three videos that have 217 00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:49,290 been yes a lot recently not a huge 218 00:09:54,189 --> 00:09:51,240 amount now I'll have to say right up 219 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:54,199 front I'm one of these people who I hope 220 00:09:58,970 --> 00:09:57,360 knows what I don't know so for example 221 00:10:01,309 --> 00:09:58,980 when I was doing this back at the 222 00:10:04,699 --> 00:10:01,319 Ministry of Defense if we had photos or 223 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:04,709 videos I didn't sit down and try and 224 00:10:09,079 --> 00:10:07,110 start making calculations about distance 225 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:09,089 from the lens or speed or or anything 226 00:10:12,460 --> 00:10:09,510 like that 227 00:10:15,790 --> 00:10:12,470 I simply handed them over to the 228 00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:15,800 intelligence community imagery analysts 229 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:18,959 people and and said look I want to tap 230 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:22,230 into your resources and capabilities in 231 00:10:27,650 --> 00:10:25,410 terms of kit and expertise and you tell 232 00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:27,660 me what I'm looking at so so yes of 233 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:30,000 course I've seen them but but I have no 234 00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:32,850 real idea what I'm looking at and 235 00:10:39,170 --> 00:10:35,040 couldn't hope to compete with with those 236 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:39,180 sorts of imagery analysts and and pilots 237 00:10:45,410 --> 00:10:41,730 and whoever who have had a look at them 238 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:45,420 so so I'm following the story but I'm 239 00:10:51,230 --> 00:10:48,720 not pronouncing on it so when you did 240 00:10:53,509 --> 00:10:51,240 show these things the the expert did 241 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:53,519 they tell you what they were and did 242 00:11:01,490 --> 00:10:57,170 they ever and you kind of come up with a 243 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:01,500 unusual interpretation of them well 244 00:11:04,970 --> 00:11:03,689 you're you to historic clear the 245 00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:04,980 Ministry of Defense 246 00:11:10,879 --> 00:11:07,800 some some of the cases yes we we didn't 247 00:11:13,939 --> 00:11:10,889 actually have maybe as many photos or 248 00:11:18,819 --> 00:11:13,949 videos as people nowadays might think I 249 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:18,829 was doing that job between 91 and 94 and 250 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:22,050 back in those days of course you know 251 00:11:27,740 --> 00:11:25,410 people didn't carry cell phones and and 252 00:11:29,180 --> 00:11:27,750 you know if we got a UFO witness who 253 00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,190 happened to have a camera around their 254 00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:31,440 neck we counted ourselves lucky so and 255 00:11:37,819 --> 00:11:34,560 and most of the product that we did yet 256 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:37,829 unfortunately was just an object in the 257 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:40,920 sky but with no trees or ground so that 258 00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,610 you could really get to work on it we 259 00:11:50,509 --> 00:11:46,320 did have one or two that was one in 260 00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:50,519 particular actually a case from a year 261 00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:54,240 before I joined 1990 and this was a 262 00:12:00,980 --> 00:11:58,170 photo taken in in Scotland and certainly 263 00:12:03,019 --> 00:12:00,990 on that occasion and I when I started 264 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:03,029 this job we had a blown-up poster sized 265 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:06,630 copy of it on my wall certainly there 266 00:12:12,139 --> 00:12:08,670 the view from the Defense Intelligence 267 00:12:14,449 --> 00:12:12,149 staff and and also from a unit called 268 00:12:16,579 --> 00:12:14,459 Jarek which was joint aerial 269 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:16,589 reconnaissance and intelligence center 270 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:20,010 their view was yes this shows a a real 271 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:23,160 solid object maybe somewhere between I 272 00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:25,620 think it was 25 and 30 feet in in 273 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:28,560 diameter not one of ours 274 00:12:33,069 --> 00:12:31,290 don't know and and so of course to get 275 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:33,079 an assessment like that was interesting 276 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:36,810 yeah yeah but nowadays with these videos 277 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:42,540 of course one one suspense and in fact 278 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:44,970 one pretty much knows that there'll be 279 00:12:50,030 --> 00:12:47,370 someone there will be someone in in the 280 00:12:52,569 --> 00:12:50,040 system who has a lot more of the 281 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:52,579 telemetry and other data than we have 282 00:12:58,670 --> 00:12:56,610 and and who has done a a proper one 283 00:13:02,900 --> 00:12:58,680 hopes a proper assessment on this in 284 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:02,910 terms of size speed distance etc yeah it 285 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:04,649 seems though though that's the Navy is 286 00:13:07,970 --> 00:13:06,360 kind of saying that's you know even 287 00:13:10,129 --> 00:13:07,980 though if they do investigate it and 288 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:10,139 figure out what it is they probably 289 00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:11,970 weren't tell anybody because it's going 290 00:13:18,079 --> 00:13:15,839 to have classified status just by virtue 291 00:13:21,079 --> 00:13:18,089 of it being a military operation 292 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:21,089 very unfortunate it is unfortunate I 293 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:23,569 have to say I've tracked these various 294 00:13:29,239 --> 00:13:26,970 statements that come out from time to 295 00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:29,249 time from Navy spokespeople and I I 296 00:13:34,579 --> 00:13:32,040 can't help but think with my own 297 00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:34,589 ministry defense background I can't help 298 00:13:37,699 --> 00:13:35,939 but think that they're slowly but surely 299 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:37,709 getting themselves into a bit a bit of a 300 00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:40,649 mess over this trippin themselves are 301 00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:43,680 not quite remembering where they are and 302 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:45,540 what they've said previously I'm not 303 00:13:49,999 --> 00:13:47,430 necessarily saying the statements are 304 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:50,009 mutually contradictory but they're you 305 00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:51,689 know certainly one or two of them do 306 00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:53,790 seem a little inconsistent and it's it's 307 00:13:58,189 --> 00:13:55,980 like well what's gone people what's 308 00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:58,199 going on here you better give us 309 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:00,800 something and and even I mean I I 310 00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:02,930 suppose I know better than most 311 00:14:09,019 --> 00:14:06,079 obviously all the the issues about 312 00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:09,029 classification and things but I can't 313 00:14:12,889 --> 00:14:10,680 help but feel that someone somewhere 314 00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:12,899 should be able to step forward and give 315 00:14:20,329 --> 00:14:17,100 a sort of unclassified 101 and if the 316 00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:20,339 message is look when we use these 317 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:24,120 various terms like u8 p + ua s we are 318 00:14:29,169 --> 00:14:26,370 exclusively talking about you know 319 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:29,179 conventional stuff that we we know about 320 00:14:34,220 --> 00:14:31,529 whether it's whether it's commercial 321 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:34,230 drones or balloons or whatever then I 322 00:14:38,660 --> 00:14:36,540 think they could very easily defuse this 323 00:14:40,699 --> 00:14:38,670 situation by saying that there's nothing 324 00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:40,709 spooky about these even if we use the 325 00:14:47,569 --> 00:14:44,550 term UAP we're not using it in the way 326 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:47,579 that the UK Ministry of Defence use it 327 00:14:52,129 --> 00:14:49,610 and yeah one of the most recent 328 00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:52,139 statements I think it was in response to 329 00:14:58,579 --> 00:14:55,230 I think it was Roger Glassell and or 330 00:15:01,910 --> 00:14:58,589 John Greenwald yeah said no this is a 331 00:15:04,369 --> 00:15:01,920 term we borrowed from the British and 332 00:15:07,489 --> 00:15:04,379 and of course when we in the ministry 333 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:07,499 defense used UAP we we absolutely meant 334 00:15:12,799 --> 00:15:10,050 it for UFO well you mean come back and 335 00:15:14,030 --> 00:15:12,809 say well fair enough but most of these 336 00:15:16,189 --> 00:15:14,040 UFO sightings 337 00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:16,199 turned out to be misidentifications 338 00:15:24,410 --> 00:15:21,809 which is fair enough but we we used UAP 339 00:15:27,499 --> 00:15:24,420 more in our internal discussions our 340 00:15:30,049 --> 00:15:27,509 policy discussions not really with the 341 00:15:31,130 --> 00:15:30,059 public and the media so when we talked 342 00:15:33,769 --> 00:15:31,140 about you Abe 343 00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:33,779 we were talking about that part of the 344 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:36,180 phenomenon that we hadn't managed to 345 00:15:42,259 --> 00:15:38,970 explain away as as aircraft lights and 346 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:42,269 weather balloons and satellites so so 347 00:15:48,259 --> 00:15:45,600 were the US Navy being deliberate in 348 00:15:50,420 --> 00:15:48,269 that or where they just being a little 349 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:50,430 loose with it I don't know yeah it's 350 00:15:54,530 --> 00:15:52,050 interesting all this the terminology 351 00:15:56,060 --> 00:15:54,540 with the UAP like someone was talking to 352 00:15:58,100 --> 00:15:56,070 me a couple of days ago and they said 353 00:16:00,650 --> 00:15:58,110 why did he call it and identify their 354 00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,660 aerial phenomenon because phenomena 355 00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:02,160 sounds like something amazing like 356 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:03,990 something that's phenomenal or this like 357 00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:07,290 you know unusual phenomena but you know 358 00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:08,640 my understanding of it I was just being 359 00:16:13,069 --> 00:16:11,190 F aerial phenomena just something that 360 00:16:15,290 --> 00:16:13,079 happens like something that's in the sky 361 00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:15,300 it's not specifically something strange 362 00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:18,779 that's happening no we used it simply 363 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:21,860 because I suppose a meteorological 364 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:25,890 phenomenon might not be an object but it 365 00:16:32,420 --> 00:16:29,070 may still generate UFO sightings so so 366 00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:32,430 we thought UAP was a good way of 367 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:35,519 sweeping up both objects and phenomena 368 00:16:41,689 --> 00:16:38,130 however as I say I go back to the point 369 00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:41,699 that we we kind of did me mean it a 370 00:16:47,569 --> 00:16:43,980 little bit more spookily maybe just just 371 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:47,579 because we did reserve it for our more 372 00:16:52,130 --> 00:16:50,250 interesting policy discussions when we 373 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:52,140 said we'll look is there something here 374 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:53,930 over and above all these 375 00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:56,510 misidentifications hoaxes and delusions 376 00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:00,240 yeah yeah I suppose you would say the 377 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:02,940 phenomena in general of UFOs and then 378 00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:04,380 there's individual phenomena which are 379 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:06,600 individual things that happen but yes 380 00:17:11,539 --> 00:17:09,020 it's a tricky tricky thing language yes 381 00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:11,549 it is and the devil is always in the 382 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:14,839 detail yeah I suppose like with UFOs 383 00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:16,980 what you're talking about there was kind 384 00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:19,470 of on the one hand there's an identical 385 00:17:25,699 --> 00:17:22,760 unidentified aircraft and then there's 386 00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:25,709 unidentified objects which you can't 387 00:17:30,110 --> 00:17:27,900 tell if they're aircraft or not and then 388 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:30,120 there's unidentified phenomena which II 389 00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,650 don't know if they are just lights in 390 00:17:35,450 --> 00:17:33,360 the sky or if they're actual objects in 391 00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:35,460 the sky or if they are actually aircraft 392 00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:37,620 so maybe the Navy should actually use an 393 00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:39,960 identified aircraft for some other stuff 394 00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:43,470 like airspace incursions and then 395 00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:45,390 was a phenomena for them the more 396 00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:48,540 unknown type of thing yes and maybe 397 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:51,540 within the bounds of not wanting to 398 00:17:56,660 --> 00:17:53,910 divulge classified information but maybe 399 00:18:00,910 --> 00:17:56,670 some of these senators and other 400 00:18:03,710 --> 00:18:00,920 Congress people who have received 401 00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:03,720 supposedly that a classified briefing on 402 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:05,790 all this perhaps some of those people 403 00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:07,970 without crossing the line could at least 404 00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:10,920 come right up to it and say look people 405 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:14,280 this is my best unclassified summary of 406 00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,310 what I've just been told right yeah do 407 00:18:22,130 --> 00:18:19,200 you are you still bound by any 408 00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:22,140 classification agreements or NDA's or 409 00:18:27,410 --> 00:18:23,160 anything like that from the British 410 00:18:30,260 --> 00:18:27,420 government yes you on your first day in 411 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:30,270 government service in the UK you sign 412 00:18:35,870 --> 00:18:32,310 the Official Secrets Act and then you 413 00:18:38,750 --> 00:18:35,880 sign you re-sign a sort of reminder on 414 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:38,760 your last day in government service and 415 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:40,800 what that does amongst other things is 416 00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:43,290 remind you that the fact that you've 417 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:45,480 you've resigned or taken early 418 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:47,460 retirement or whatever it is does not 419 00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:50,130 mean that your your security oath has 420 00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:51,960 somehow magically come to an end 421 00:18:59,930 --> 00:18:54,240 no the Official Secrets Act is binding 422 00:19:02,990 --> 00:18:59,940 for life so the the the rule the the big 423 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:03,000 part of that of course is not divulging 424 00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:05,970 any classified information ever the 425 00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:09,960 reason that I can discuss the mo DS UFO 426 00:19:15,650 --> 00:19:13,950 work so so openly is because 99 percent 427 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:15,660 of it has now been Declassified and 428 00:19:23,030 --> 00:19:20,490 released if there was some some 429 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:23,040 information that you couldn't release 430 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:24,210 could you tell us that there was 431 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:25,850 information that you couldn't release 432 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:30,300 yes and I probably even but yes yes 433 00:19:36,170 --> 00:19:33,210 there is but what I could then do is 434 00:19:38,420 --> 00:19:36,180 qualify it and in trying to be helpful 435 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:38,430 with this and saying but no the 436 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:41,190 information that I have which I'm not 437 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:43,890 allowed to release is not that we have a 438 00:19:50,620 --> 00:19:46,260 spaceship hidden in an Air Force hangar 439 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:50,630 something right it is for example 440 00:19:57,060 --> 00:19:54,210 methods and sources by which information 441 00:20:00,749 --> 00:19:57,070 about UFOs was gathered from 442 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:00,759 the nation's it is information about the 443 00:20:05,879 --> 00:20:04,330 the technical capabilities of our radar 444 00:20:08,279 --> 00:20:05,889 system so for example there are some 445 00:20:10,409 --> 00:20:08,289 documents kicking around saying well if 446 00:20:13,379 --> 00:20:10,419 there was something on an unknown in our 447 00:20:18,269 --> 00:20:13,389 airspace we were would be able to detect 448 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:18,279 it out to a distance of X so so 449 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:20,350 obviously I wouldn't want to go there 450 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:23,049 because it would give away capabilities 451 00:20:28,919 --> 00:20:25,990 of military hardware and with some 452 00:20:30,029 --> 00:20:28,929 information on UFOs and with other 453 00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:30,039 subjects 454 00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:33,190 it's information passed in confidence by 455 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:38,159 a third party whether it's a nation or a 456 00:20:44,570 --> 00:20:41,529 corporation and or something like that 457 00:20:46,919 --> 00:20:44,580 actually probably eight out of ten 458 00:20:49,379 --> 00:20:46,929 redactions in the ministry of defense 459 00:20:53,159 --> 00:20:49,389 UFO FILES are simply names addresses and 460 00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:53,169 phone numbers of witnesses yes yeah it's 461 00:20:58,919 --> 00:20:56,710 I think in the do you think the US has a 462 00:21:00,779 --> 00:20:58,929 kind of a stronger lock down on things 463 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:00,789 it seems like they're keeping things 464 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:03,250 classified by default here do you think 465 00:21:07,889 --> 00:21:05,470 one country is more open than the other 466 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:07,899 Britain versus new UK Britain dangerous 467 00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:12,850 I find it difficult to judge I think 468 00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:14,620 even though I've lived in the u.s. now 469 00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:17,830 since January 2012 I I haven't ever 470 00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:20,769 worked in the u.s. system so I don't 471 00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:23,679 know people say on UFOs I hit people in 472 00:21:27,779 --> 00:21:25,720 the UFO community say Oh Britons 473 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:27,789 released its UFO FILES France has 474 00:21:33,749 --> 00:21:31,090 released its files Brazil Australia and 475 00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:33,759 New Zealand etc when will the u.s. do it 476 00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:35,889 and I would imagine that someone in the 477 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:38,440 US is feeling pretty peeved because they 478 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:40,090 would probably turn around and say well 479 00:21:45,629 --> 00:21:43,090 hey look we were the first to be Project 480 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:45,639 Blue Book Archive is out there but then 481 00:21:52,529 --> 00:21:47,710 of course there there is the separate 482 00:21:56,220 --> 00:21:52,539 debate that between the end of 69 when 483 00:21:59,070 --> 00:21:56,230 blue book was terminated and and a few 484 00:22:01,490 --> 00:21:59,080 months ago the official line was we're 485 00:22:03,659 --> 00:22:01,500 not interested we don't do anything so 486 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:03,669 so I guess there is a question about 487 00:22:09,090 --> 00:22:06,820 secrecy there I mean if if anyone if 488 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:09,100 anyone had phoned up the DoD press 489 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:11,010 office prior to 490 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:15,510 December 2017 and said what do you do 491 00:22:22,130 --> 00:22:16,910 you look at anything I unidentified 492 00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:22,140 they'd have said no yeah so what about 493 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:23,910 the same type of thing in the UK though 494 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:29,700 like you you left the DoD in 94 do you 495 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:32,250 know what happened after that yes I 496 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,250 should say just on the dates I my time 497 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:38,100 on on the division where I investigated 498 00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:42,570 UFOs that was 91 to 94 but that was part 499 00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:45,720 of a much wider 21 year ministry defense 500 00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:51,540 career which ran from 1985 to 2006 when 501 00:22:58,730 --> 00:22:54,390 I took early retirement now I know that 502 00:23:01,460 --> 00:22:58,740 between 1994 and 2006 the the UFO 503 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,470 investigation and research went on and 504 00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:03,000 indeed because it's now been 505 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:05,580 Declassified and released I've I've seen 506 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:09,450 all those files the research effort was 507 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:12,630 finally terminated in the end of 508 00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:16,290 December 2009 although there are rumors 509 00:23:21,289 --> 00:23:18,900 of course that that work continues which 510 00:23:24,140 --> 00:23:21,299 which wouldn't surprise me why why would 511 00:23:27,919 --> 00:23:24,150 it not nobody's going to ignore credible 512 00:23:30,530 --> 00:23:27,929 evidence of something unexplained in our 513 00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:30,540 airspace whether it's in the US the UK 514 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,960 or or anywhere alright did you leave 515 00:23:38,539 --> 00:23:36,480 like because of any reason related to 516 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:38,549 the UFO program like because it was 517 00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:39,570 ending or anything like that 518 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:43,020 no I've seen some internet stories 519 00:23:48,169 --> 00:23:45,570 saying that I resigned in protest or 520 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:48,179 something not absolutely not true I I 521 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:50,760 just I just took took early retirement 522 00:23:57,919 --> 00:23:53,850 because I want to pursue other things 523 00:24:01,370 --> 00:23:57,929 yeah that's interesting the 21 years you 524 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:01,380 know these days I think you know 21 525 00:24:05,060 --> 00:24:03,270 years would probably be considered a 526 00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:05,070 long time in an organization but I've 527 00:24:11,419 --> 00:24:08,880 done some interesting fascinating things 528 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:11,429 not just UFOs but obviously in the 529 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:14,370 course of 21 years in Defence one one 530 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:17,850 does a lot of you know interesting jobs 531 00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:21,450 postings and but I done 21 years and I I 532 00:24:27,230 --> 00:24:24,880 just tried you know I wanted to change 533 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:27,240 no-nothing ufo-related Noah's 534 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:29,890 resignation in protest or anything like 535 00:24:34,350 --> 00:24:32,650 that yeah that's about the same time I 536 00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:34,360 spent in the games industry and I again 537 00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:36,670 also just left to pursue other interests 538 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:39,430 I think 21 years of doing anything is 539 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:43,990 long enough for a lot of things yes I I 540 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:46,690 asked you you know that that's give us I 541 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:49,570 did do do some research before the 542 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:51,730 interview and there's lots of different 543 00:24:57,900 --> 00:24:54,970 stories about you on the on the Internet 544 00:24:59,880 --> 00:24:57,910 it's not not all complimentary oh I try 545 00:25:02,040 --> 00:24:59,890 not to look at them you know the amount 546 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:02,050 of things that have been written about 547 00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:05,980 me in the blogosphere I I see some of 548 00:25:11,250 --> 00:25:08,470 them but I deliberately don't go looking 549 00:25:13,230 --> 00:25:11,260 for all of them I I dread to think yeah 550 00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:13,240 and there's this story about you saying 551 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:15,220 there was an impending alien invasion 552 00:25:21,930 --> 00:25:19,510 what was a little bit yes that was me 553 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:21,940 doing some one of the things that I do 554 00:25:27,230 --> 00:25:23,770 now because of the work that I used to 555 00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:27,240 do is I act as consultant and 556 00:25:35,910 --> 00:25:31,270 spokesperson when when there are various 557 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:35,920 UFO or alien themed movies TV shows or 558 00:25:44,790 --> 00:25:42,130 video games and for one of those the the 559 00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:44,800 part of the sort of rather fun I thought 560 00:25:51,210 --> 00:25:48,460 marketing campaign was what if there was 561 00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:51,220 a real-life alien invasion how would we 562 00:25:58,170 --> 00:25:53,020 deal with it what would that plan look 563 00:26:01,470 --> 00:25:58,180 like and so I drew are blending my 564 00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:01,480 knowledge of the UFO phenomenon with 565 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:04,420 with my more general sort of mo D 566 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:06,970 military warfighting what does a real 567 00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:10,750 war plan look like I wrote a spoof alien 568 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:15,040 invasion war plan and that obviously got 569 00:26:21,630 --> 00:26:18,880 put out there and and the company said 570 00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:21,640 something like in in the week in which 571 00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:24,160 we see the launch of whatever the game 572 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:27,460 was we asked you know what might really 573 00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:30,430 happen if if this went down and this is 574 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:32,590 what we've come up with and of course 575 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:35,650 various people in the UFO community got 576 00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:38,090 hold of parts of this and 577 00:26:43,899 --> 00:26:41,480 and yes the rest is history yes there 578 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:43,909 was a shall we say there was a bit of a 579 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:45,890 sense of humor failure and in that 580 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:50,690 reporters always a problem isn't it yeah 581 00:26:55,330 --> 00:26:51,980 because people want to believe certain 582 00:26:57,159 --> 00:26:55,340 things and sometimes I tried to avoid 583 00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:57,169 joking in fact I've actually got a rule 584 00:27:02,590 --> 00:26:59,480 on my website saying that people should 585 00:27:04,659 --> 00:27:02,600 avoid sarcasm because it goes wrong so 586 00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:04,669 very many times that people take you 587 00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:06,080 seriously when you're actually making 588 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:08,900 jokes so it's usually better to avoid it 589 00:27:14,139 --> 00:27:11,630 yes and and tell you what else 590 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:14,149 government people tend not to do it very 591 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:17,090 well so for example we saw that just the 592 00:27:22,019 --> 00:27:19,010 other day with with actually some of the 593 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:22,029 media ops people covering the area 51 594 00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:25,370 story and they tweeted some a picture as 595 00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:28,399 I recall of a b-2 bomber and and various 596 00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:31,279 you know men and women in uniform saying 597 00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:34,159 if anyone stores storms area 51 this 598 00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:36,860 will be the last thing you see and and 599 00:27:41,289 --> 00:27:38,990 then they had to retract it and I said 600 00:27:44,019 --> 00:27:41,299 oh you know obviously that wasn't gonna 601 00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,029 happen but it is just proof if proof was 602 00:27:49,389 --> 00:27:46,640 needed that government press officers 603 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:49,399 and military PR staffs 604 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:52,130 should should not try to be funny they 605 00:27:57,130 --> 00:27:55,130 should stick stick to just doing what 606 00:28:00,039 --> 00:27:57,140 they do yes don't try and make jokes 607 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:00,049 don't try and be hit or funny it just 608 00:28:04,899 --> 00:28:02,690 doesn't work yes it's a you've got to 609 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:04,909 know your audience and and they probably 610 00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:07,610 don't know that audience so stay away 611 00:28:14,590 --> 00:28:10,159 from it so like you talked about UFO 612 00:28:17,620 --> 00:28:14,600 culture you mentioned UFO culture do you 613 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:17,630 consider yourself like part of UFO UFO 614 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:22,190 ology not really I've I've never 615 00:28:28,299 --> 00:28:25,490 describe myself as a ufologist or 616 00:28:31,659 --> 00:28:28,309 ufo-ologists or however people I'm 617 00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:31,669 simply an ex-government guy who once did 618 00:28:40,810 --> 00:28:36,320 this as my my government job now now yes 619 00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:40,820 of course I I do some TV shows where I 620 00:28:47,049 --> 00:28:44,000 talk about it I I do the consultancy and 621 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:47,059 spokesperson work that we discussed on 622 00:28:51,940 --> 00:28:49,970 video games and movies and things but I 623 00:28:54,519 --> 00:28:51,950 and I speak at these contro 624 00:28:58,090 --> 00:28:54,529 says but I don't actually consider 625 00:29:00,490 --> 00:28:58,100 myself part of the the community I mean 626 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:00,500 maybe I should I don't know I'm maybe 627 00:29:04,259 --> 00:29:01,850 it's not even my call 628 00:29:06,129 --> 00:29:04,269 well yeah I don't think there's a 629 00:29:08,889 --> 00:29:06,139 membership card I suppose there are some 630 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:08,899 organizations that you can join yes I'm 631 00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:13,370 not certainly not a joiner I I know 632 00:29:20,529 --> 00:29:16,580 people in MUFON but I would would not 633 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:20,539 join I know people in the to the stars 634 00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:22,760 Academy I but I'm not I haven't been 635 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:24,710 asked to join and I probably wouldn't 636 00:29:31,899 --> 00:29:27,710 I'm I'm just not a joiner of things I 637 00:29:34,060 --> 00:29:31,909 like to to go my own way right so to the 638 00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:34,070 Stars Academy you said you probably 639 00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:36,980 wouldn't join it is that for any 640 00:29:43,090 --> 00:29:39,380 particular reason about what you think 641 00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:43,100 of them as a quality organization no not 642 00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:45,740 at all I mean I I haven't had dealings 643 00:29:51,639 --> 00:29:48,940 with all of them but but from the 644 00:29:53,919 --> 00:29:51,649 limited interactions I have had over the 645 00:29:56,409 --> 00:29:53,929 years with with some of them and from 646 00:29:59,049 --> 00:29:56,419 the materials that I've read of others i 647 00:30:00,669 --> 00:29:59,059 I think I mean when when one reads for 648 00:30:04,269 --> 00:30:00,679 example the things that Christopher 649 00:30:06,669 --> 00:30:04,279 Mellon has written as as op-eds I think 650 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:06,679 you know I could have and indeed have 651 00:30:11,289 --> 00:30:09,049 written some fairly similar sorts of 652 00:30:14,259 --> 00:30:11,299 op-eds myself arguing for a more serious 653 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:14,269 treatment of this subject so when when I 654 00:30:20,350 --> 00:30:16,570 see something like that and when I 655 00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:20,360 discuss this as I have occasionally with 656 00:30:26,379 --> 00:30:23,990 Louis Arras Ando I sort of see I suppose 657 00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:26,389 somebody coming at it from the same 658 00:30:33,250 --> 00:30:29,950 angle so no it doesn't reflect any any 659 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:33,260 problem I have with them simply back to 660 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:35,510 the fact that I just as a personality 661 00:30:42,669 --> 00:30:41,330 type I'm not a joiner of things right do 662 00:30:45,070 --> 00:30:42,679 you what do you think of their approach 663 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:45,080 right now where they're doing like 664 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:47,090 Discovery Channel shows that are kind of 665 00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:50,210 it's somewhat sensationalistic do you 666 00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:52,070 think that that's a good way of getting 667 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:56,000 the information out there it's it's a 668 00:30:59,740 --> 00:30:58,130 way of getting information out there I 669 00:31:01,570 --> 00:30:59,750 think he goes back to the fact that 670 00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:01,580 there are different audiences for them 671 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:05,230 and I don't think there's anything wrong 672 00:31:11,610 --> 00:31:08,130 in playing to the pop culture meme and 673 00:31:14,670 --> 00:31:11,620 doing those sorts of shows having said 674 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:14,680 that the more important arguably more 675 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:17,910 important work that they do is probably 676 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:21,370 things like like the the op-eds in the 677 00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:25,060 post it may reach a smaller audience but 678 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:28,960 it's arguably a more influential and 679 00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:32,890 powerful audience in terms of leveraging 680 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:36,580 any changing policy but I think I think 681 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:38,050 you have to hit all the bases and 682 00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:39,910 they've probably got a strategy that 683 00:31:46,770 --> 00:31:44,230 says yeah we need to be populist on this 684 00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:46,780 and do those sorts of shows but we need 685 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:49,390 to be niche as well and target that that 686 00:31:58,050 --> 00:31:54,850 internal political audience suppose you 687 00:31:59,820 --> 00:31:58,060 get asked all the time what you think 688 00:32:03,720 --> 00:31:59,830 about your Thurs like what do you think 689 00:32:06,450 --> 00:32:03,730 is actually going on and like where do 690 00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:06,460 you think you know there do you think 691 00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:09,550 that they are more likely to be aliens 692 00:32:18,090 --> 00:32:15,400 or more likely to be humans well yeah 693 00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:18,100 let me give you my sort of basic answer 694 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:22,270 on this I am a fairly firm believer that 695 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:24,310 there will be life elsewhere in the 696 00:32:30,150 --> 00:32:27,730 universe and also a firm believer that 697 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:30,160 some of that life will have evolved 698 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:35,890 beyond microbial or simple life and and 699 00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:38,410 that there will be other intelligences 700 00:32:45,870 --> 00:32:42,420 other civilizations out there some 701 00:32:51,180 --> 00:32:45,880 lesson evolved than us some at our level 702 00:32:53,550 --> 00:32:51,190 and others beyond I I suspect as to 703 00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:53,560 whether we're being visited or not I I I 704 00:32:59,850 --> 00:32:57,670 don't know i when when I one of my 705 00:33:02,190 --> 00:32:59,860 favourite sound bites about all this if 706 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:02,200 you're like excuse me repeating one of 707 00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:04,210 my favorite sound lights is is that the 708 00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:06,160 skeptics have to be right every day the 709 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:07,750 believers only need to be right once 710 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:11,230 that's grow so so I don't you know I'm 711 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:14,050 not I mean maybe it is I mean 712 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:17,110 statistically obviously I know from my 713 00:33:21,539 --> 00:33:18,640 own work that 714 00:33:24,390 --> 00:33:21,549 statistically it is if you pick a UFO 715 00:33:29,010 --> 00:33:24,400 sighting at random it is likely to be a 716 00:33:31,650 --> 00:33:29,020 misidentification and the the second 717 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:31,660 most likely thing is probably a hoax and 718 00:33:36,030 --> 00:33:33,490 the third most likely is some sort of 719 00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:36,040 psychological delusion or hallucination 720 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:40,240 or vivid dream but I don't rule out the 721 00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:42,850 extraterrestrial origin and like I say 722 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:44,830 only one of those cases has to be the 723 00:33:48,539 --> 00:33:45,970 real thing 724 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:48,549 and we are in game-changing territory so 725 00:33:57,390 --> 00:33:54,330 so that keeps me interested and involved 726 00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,400 yeah I suppose the the main one now that 727 00:34:04,200 --> 00:33:59,760 people are talking about is the nimitz 728 00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:04,210 encounter because they have the video 729 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:05,620 the nimitz encounter is pretty easy 730 00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,210 could have a blurry blob in the distance 731 00:34:12,330 --> 00:34:09,040 it's not hard to tell anything from it 732 00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:12,340 but they have fairly good eyewitness 733 00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:14,190 accounts see how this command of Raver 734 00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:17,310 who talks about seeing this tic-tac 735 00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:19,750 jumping around and then there's the the 736 00:34:23,609 --> 00:34:21,280 other pilot on the other plane and then 737 00:34:29,070 --> 00:34:23,619 radar operators and whatnot from there 738 00:34:33,210 --> 00:34:29,080 from the ship do you think the nimitz 739 00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:33,220 encounter kind of rises up to the top in 740 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:37,359 terms of the most plausible UFO stories 741 00:34:43,230 --> 00:34:41,050 in the last year 50 plus years yes i 742 00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:43,240 think it must be up there and i would 743 00:34:48,030 --> 00:34:45,790 also say that i would not describe it as 744 00:34:50,909 --> 00:34:48,040 a single encounter but as multiple 745 00:34:55,619 --> 00:34:50,919 encounters from what i understand and 746 00:34:58,349 --> 00:34:55,629 and the related 2015 incidents and 747 00:35:01,050 --> 00:34:58,359 indeed i would look at this holistically 748 00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:01,060 when when you look at what the Navy said 749 00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:05,380 I think back in May about issuing or 750 00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:07,960 reissuing guidance to pilots and other 751 00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:11,140 other military personnel they they 752 00:35:16,109 --> 00:35:14,260 describe this as being the result of and 753 00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:16,119 I think the word they used was an 754 00:35:23,609 --> 00:35:20,710 upsurge in unauthorized incursions into 755 00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:23,619 restricted military airspace so in one 756 00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:26,560 sense I would lump all of this together 757 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:31,990 Nimitz Princeton Frey vore and and the 758 00:35:35,830 --> 00:35:33,050 various other 759 00:35:38,050 --> 00:35:35,840 people pilots and radar operators who 760 00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:38,060 have now gone on the record with this 761 00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:41,060 yeah it's interesting to me that you 762 00:35:47,050 --> 00:35:43,420 talk about judging things holistically 763 00:35:49,330 --> 00:35:47,060 because I always tend to try to break 764 00:35:52,030 --> 00:35:49,340 things down and look at the individual 765 00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:52,040 pieces of evidence and it's always kind 766 00:35:56,530 --> 00:35:53,990 of this battle that I have with people 767 00:35:57,970 --> 00:35:56,540 in in that's yeah I I say I'm just gonna 768 00:36:01,240 --> 00:35:57,980 look at this video and try to see what 769 00:36:02,410 --> 00:36:01,250 this video says like you could say for 770 00:36:04,750 --> 00:36:02,420 example the one piece of evidence you 771 00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:04,760 just said there that there was an uptick 772 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:09,800 in incursions into airspace which could 773 00:36:14,530 --> 00:36:12,530 just be an uptick because drones are 774 00:36:17,590 --> 00:36:14,540 getting you know individual personal 775 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:17,600 drones are getting way more popular and 776 00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:20,810 cheaper and longer range and whatnot so 777 00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:24,950 each individual piece of evidence can 778 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:27,440 have some kind of explanation but can 779 00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:28,730 you actually put together all these 780 00:36:32,770 --> 00:36:30,380 different pieces of evidence which all 781 00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:32,780 individually might be explainable and 782 00:36:38,110 --> 00:36:35,150 then say there's so many things that 783 00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:38,120 there has to be something there I don't 784 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:40,670 know it gets to one of the big big 785 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:42,530 problems we had at the Ministry of 786 00:36:48,070 --> 00:36:45,050 Defence with this and and yes I take the 787 00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:48,080 point that each individual incident or 788 00:36:53,310 --> 00:36:50,500 case needs needs to be properly 789 00:36:56,980 --> 00:36:53,320 investigated but one of my big 790 00:37:03,160 --> 00:36:56,990 complaints was that nobody did any trend 791 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:03,170 analysis no very few occasions did for 792 00:37:08,890 --> 00:37:06,650 example anyone sit down and do what I 793 00:37:11,350 --> 00:37:08,900 suppose you would call an intelligence 794 00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:11,360 assessment where somebody tried to join 795 00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:14,510 the dots and say well if we put this 796 00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:15,230 together 797 00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:19,160 what does this mean so it was difficult 798 00:37:24,430 --> 00:37:21,590 to strike that balance between the 799 00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:24,440 individual incident and the overall 800 00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:27,710 picture and I I'm not I'm not claiming 801 00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:29,720 to have any right answer to the 802 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:32,030 methodology of dealing with this I mean 803 00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:33,470 clearly in one sense you've got to do 804 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:38,240 both yeah how would you say like cases 805 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:42,530 like say the Nimitz case differs from 806 00:37:45,690 --> 00:37:44,570 some of them or all the classic cases 807 00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:45,700 like the Rendell 808 00:37:53,579 --> 00:37:50,400 Forrest case well I think actually 809 00:37:56,940 --> 00:37:53,589 Nimitz and Rendlesham do have some some 810 00:38:00,120 --> 00:37:56,950 things in common ie being multiple 811 00:38:02,970 --> 00:38:00,130 incident cases with with a series of 812 00:38:05,970 --> 00:38:02,980 individual incidents also being cases 813 00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:05,980 where there are essentially military 814 00:38:14,819 --> 00:38:11,380 witnesses to to something and a paper 815 00:38:16,670 --> 00:38:14,829 trail of documents some of which have 816 00:38:18,839 --> 00:38:16,680 been released and some of which 817 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:18,849 presumably haven't particularly with 818 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:23,440 with Nimitz and and such like where 819 00:38:29,099 --> 00:38:26,410 where you can begin to say well we've 820 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:29,109 got more than just hearsay here we've 821 00:38:34,740 --> 00:38:32,650 we've got the the military witnesses 822 00:38:36,930 --> 00:38:34,750 speaking out about this but here we've 823 00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:36,940 got for example government documents 824 00:38:40,829 --> 00:38:39,520 talking about it and actually that's one 825 00:38:43,410 --> 00:38:40,839 of the interesting things I think about 826 00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:43,420 this whole story is that in all the 827 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:45,430 millions and millions of words that have 828 00:38:49,069 --> 00:38:45,970 been written 829 00:38:52,319 --> 00:38:49,079 we've actually got comparatively few 830 00:38:56,579 --> 00:38:52,329 government documents but you know we've 831 00:38:59,609 --> 00:38:56,589 got we've got Senator Harry Reid's 2009 832 00:39:02,660 --> 00:38:59,619 I think letter to a to the deputy 833 00:39:06,770 --> 00:39:02,670 defense secretary we've got some of the 834 00:39:09,150 --> 00:39:06,780 initial contract solicitation 835 00:39:12,660 --> 00:39:09,160 documentation we've got the DIA letter 836 00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:12,670 to Congress sent a few weeks after this 837 00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:16,480 story broke in The Times people like 838 00:39:23,579 --> 00:39:21,400 Roger grassle and Paul Dean and and John 839 00:39:25,170 --> 00:39:23,589 Greenwald have solicited various other 840 00:39:27,630 --> 00:39:25,180 press officer statements but we still 841 00:39:29,849 --> 00:39:27,640 haven't got that much but but to go back 842 00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:29,859 to your original question yes there are 843 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:32,500 some commonalities I think and that's 844 00:39:40,049 --> 00:39:35,410 why I I say this this certainly goes 845 00:39:42,089 --> 00:39:40,059 into the top draw if there is such a 846 00:39:45,630 --> 00:39:42,099 thing when it comes to these these sorts 847 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:45,640 of cases yeah he was for me I always 848 00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:47,290 kind of found it interesting that when I 849 00:39:52,170 --> 00:39:49,630 asked people what their their classic 850 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:52,180 that the best evidence was for UFOs you 851 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:53,890 quite often get these cases that go back 852 00:40:00,160 --> 00:39:58,010 to the 50s like there was the guy who 853 00:40:02,290 --> 00:40:00,170 yeah got abducted from his car on a 854 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:02,300 desert highway like in the universe of 855 00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:03,770 the 60s or 70s or something like that 856 00:40:08,410 --> 00:40:06,950 these very old cases but it seems like 857 00:40:11,859 --> 00:40:08,420 you know like we say we are getting a 858 00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:11,869 bit of a a new thing but was there kind 859 00:40:17,470 --> 00:40:14,720 of like kind of a golden age of UFOs and 860 00:40:19,859 --> 00:40:17,480 then we had kind of a dip or do you 861 00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:19,869 think it's been fairly constant or what 862 00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:22,820 well I think I think like most things 863 00:40:27,940 --> 00:40:26,030 there are peaks and troughs booms and 864 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:27,950 busts I think one could say that 865 00:40:35,050 --> 00:40:32,290 obviously going back to the summer of 47 866 00:40:39,099 --> 00:40:35,060 the whole flying saucer 867 00:40:42,070 --> 00:40:39,109 mhmmm fever that swept the US and indeed 868 00:40:45,810 --> 00:40:42,080 the wider world that was a big thing 869 00:40:50,590 --> 00:40:45,820 then certainly in the early 50s maybe 870 00:40:54,220 --> 00:40:50,600 fueled to some extent by the difficult 871 00:40:56,590 --> 00:40:54,230 but undeniable linkages between this 872 00:40:57,970 --> 00:40:56,600 subject and science fiction and and 873 00:40:59,710 --> 00:40:57,980 things like The Day the Earth Stood 874 00:41:02,440 --> 00:40:59,720 Still but certainly there was a golden 875 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:02,450 age in the 50s and there was a huge wave 876 00:41:14,349 --> 00:41:07,850 I suppose in in 67 certainly in the US 877 00:41:17,260 --> 00:41:14,359 and the UK yeah same same in the 70s and 878 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:17,270 maybe again maybe Close Encounters of 879 00:41:22,990 --> 00:41:20,210 the Third Kind and the resurgence of 880 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:23,000 science fiction with with that and then 881 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:26,210 with star wars maybe that played a part 882 00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:27,890 but you know these things these things 883 00:41:32,410 --> 00:41:29,720 don't generate I don't think they 884 00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:32,420 generate UFO sightings what I think they 885 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:34,820 do is the they create a fertile ground 886 00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:38,810 on which people who've had sightings can 887 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:41,780 can maybe step forward and say well I 888 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:43,850 guess this is okay to talk about now 889 00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:47,930 so but it it comes and goes it comes and 890 00:41:55,330 --> 00:41:51,020 goes what I in in the 90s with the rise 891 00:41:58,540 --> 00:41:55,340 of the x-files then that was a big thing 892 00:42:00,280 --> 00:41:58,550 but not all of the not all of this is 893 00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:00,290 sci-fi Laird 894 00:42:06,070 --> 00:42:03,920 some of it is just events led and for 895 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:06,080 example the declassification and release 896 00:42:11,589 --> 00:42:08,810 of the British government's UFO FILES 897 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:11,599 was a big story and I would 898 00:42:18,939 --> 00:42:16,130 I would argue that prior to the a tip 899 00:42:21,279 --> 00:42:18,949 story coming out declassification of the 900 00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:21,289 British government's UFO FILES was one 901 00:42:26,189 --> 00:42:22,940 of the most one of the biggest and most 902 00:42:31,359 --> 00:42:26,199 important UFO stories in recent years 903 00:42:31,870 --> 00:42:31,369 yeah well a slightly different attack 904 00:42:34,809 --> 00:42:31,880 here 905 00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:34,819 what do you think about essentially the 906 00:42:41,529 --> 00:42:37,670 conspiracy theory version of UFOs that 907 00:42:43,479 --> 00:42:41,539 the government is covering stuff up do 908 00:42:45,819 --> 00:42:43,489 you see any evidence that the government 909 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:45,829 is deliberately hiding any information 910 00:42:54,969 --> 00:42:50,930 anything notable yeah not really there's 911 00:42:57,279 --> 00:42:54,979 a very very detailed essay on my website 912 00:43:00,279 --> 00:42:57,289 about conspiracy theories and while I 913 00:43:01,930 --> 00:43:00,289 say don't don't discount everything you 914 00:43:04,859 --> 00:43:01,940 know one or two conspiracies do turn out 915 00:43:07,479 --> 00:43:04,869 to be true most of the big ones 916 00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:07,489 JFK moon landings 917 00:43:14,259 --> 00:43:12,049 Princess Diana 9/11 I am not convinced 918 00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:14,269 by any of that and neither am i 919 00:43:20,859 --> 00:43:17,049 convinced by the idea that there is a 920 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:20,869 nebulous conspiracy to keep an alien 921 00:43:28,269 --> 00:43:24,410 presence from the public eye I do not 922 00:43:32,620 --> 00:43:28,279 believe anyone has a crashed spaceship 923 00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:32,630 in a hangar anywhere but I do believe 924 00:43:37,539 --> 00:43:35,359 that the US government and the UK 925 00:43:41,339 --> 00:43:37,549 government consistently over the years 926 00:43:44,759 --> 00:43:41,349 have and still are grappling with 927 00:43:49,479 --> 00:43:44,769 something that they don't fully yet 928 00:43:52,299 --> 00:43:49,489 understand and have a handle on so I see 929 00:43:56,759 --> 00:43:52,309 and and indeed have been a part of what 930 00:43:59,799 --> 00:43:56,769 I would call a downplaying of official 931 00:44:04,120 --> 00:43:59,809 interest in an involvement with the 932 00:44:09,609 --> 00:44:04,130 subject but I don't see a concerted 933 00:44:12,099 --> 00:44:09,619 effort to hide hardware for example yeah 934 00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:12,109 so especially not a big fan of bob lazar 935 00:44:19,809 --> 00:44:17,180 then not not a huge fan but I fall back 936 00:44:23,739 --> 00:44:19,819 on the old adage interesting if true and 937 00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,749 and clearly if if he has other things to 938 00:44:27,529 --> 00:44:25,680 to bring forward 939 00:44:30,980 --> 00:44:27,539 I'm sure we all be interested to hear 940 00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:30,990 them yeah I asked on Twitter for 941 00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:33,839 questions for you and somebody asked me 942 00:44:41,359 --> 00:44:38,609 a strange question well it was asked him 943 00:44:43,579 --> 00:44:41,369 why any would debunk the et UFO 944 00:44:46,910 --> 00:44:43,589 phenomenon and I think what he's asking 945 00:44:49,250 --> 00:44:46,920 there is what do you think about the 946 00:44:52,730 --> 00:44:49,260 skeptics do you think that there are 947 00:44:57,289 --> 00:44:52,740 people who are too much in the naysaying 948 00:45:00,380 --> 00:44:57,299 camp to negative yes I I think there's a 949 00:45:03,490 --> 00:45:00,390 spectrum there's a belief spectrum and I 950 00:45:06,890 --> 00:45:03,500 again this is one of my one of my 951 00:45:09,019 --> 00:45:06,900 commentaries upon ufology what I what I 952 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:09,029 tend to find is that there's a belief 953 00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:13,010 spectrum with extremists at both ends so 954 00:45:23,230 --> 00:45:18,720 there is a sort of wide-eyed true 955 00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:23,240 believer it's all true at the kind of 956 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:26,640 believer end of the spectrum but equally 957 00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:28,650 at at the other end of the spectrum 958 00:45:37,089 --> 00:45:32,460 there's a sort of none of this can be 959 00:45:41,299 --> 00:45:37,099 true therefore it it isn't true as 960 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:41,309 opposed to doing what the people in the 961 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:43,890 middle should do which is go in 962 00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,730 not with those preconceived beliefs 963 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:49,680 though obviously everyone has them but 964 00:45:56,329 --> 00:45:53,690 go in and try to do an even-handed 965 00:46:00,260 --> 00:45:56,339 investigation or piece of research that 966 00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:00,270 is not conclusion led yes so I think I 967 00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:03,000 think long way of saying yes there are 968 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:07,230 there are extremists and nutjobs at both 969 00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:10,170 the end of the spectrum and there there 970 00:46:13,309 --> 00:46:11,760 are some sensible people are a lot of 971 00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:13,319 sensible people actually in the middle 972 00:46:18,049 --> 00:46:16,319 yes yes very true and there's certainly 973 00:46:22,460 --> 00:46:18,059 a wide range of people in the UFO 974 00:46:24,349 --> 00:46:22,470 community it does seem to generate a lot 975 00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:24,359 more passion than the other things that 976 00:46:28,609 --> 00:46:26,390 I look at it's kind of strange that even 977 00:46:31,339 --> 00:46:28,619 you know I look at things like 978 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:31,349 chemtrails and 9/11 conspiracy theories 979 00:46:36,089 --> 00:46:33,690 and flat earth the Flat Earth people are 980 00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:36,099 the nicest people and 981 00:46:41,939 --> 00:46:38,440 I've got the most hate I think from the 982 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:41,949 UFO people it's a kind of an odd 983 00:46:46,170 --> 00:46:43,930 community I think in perhaps it's going 984 00:46:47,729 --> 00:46:46,180 to do with the the people it attracts 985 00:46:50,910 --> 00:46:47,739 but I'm I don't know do you do you get 986 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:50,920 any sense of why there's so much passion 987 00:46:59,459 --> 00:46:55,690 in the UFO community well I think I I 988 00:47:03,569 --> 00:46:59,469 think part of it comes from the fact 989 00:47:08,249 --> 00:47:03,579 that that with UFOs are a part of the 990 00:47:11,370 --> 00:47:08,259 community are witnesses themselves and 991 00:47:13,579 --> 00:47:11,380 and a part of a segment of those 992 00:47:17,939 --> 00:47:13,589 witnesses would categorize themselves 993 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:17,949 even more deeply involved as experiences 994 00:47:22,609 --> 00:47:20,170 and and abductees or whatever 995 00:47:25,469 --> 00:47:22,619 terminology they want to use therefore 996 00:47:28,170 --> 00:47:25,479 those people have what they see as a 997 00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:28,180 personal connection and investment with 998 00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:32,049 the subject in a way that say you know 999 00:47:37,469 --> 00:47:34,390 people studying and debating the moon 1000 00:47:39,569 --> 00:47:37,479 landings wouldn't I mean no you know she 1001 00:47:41,789 --> 00:47:39,579 and unless you were an astronaut in 1002 00:47:44,249 --> 00:47:41,799 which case you probably that's why Buzz 1003 00:47:46,170 --> 00:47:44,259 Aldrin hunch that I did and actually 1004 00:47:48,689 --> 00:47:46,180 that's that's I suppose a good point 1005 00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:48,699 both Buzz has that same personal 1006 00:47:53,339 --> 00:47:50,529 connection he actually went to the moon 1007 00:47:56,549 --> 00:47:53,349 therefore when he hears people say no 1008 00:47:58,920 --> 00:47:56,559 you didn't he feels was justifiably 1009 00:48:01,140 --> 00:47:58,930 aggrieved so perhaps that's the answer 1010 00:48:03,749 --> 00:48:01,150 to the question the witnesses feel that 1011 00:48:06,059 --> 00:48:03,759 that when people pour cold water on 1012 00:48:08,459 --> 00:48:06,069 their experiences there they are being 1013 00:48:10,829 --> 00:48:08,469 personally called Liars and their 1014 00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:10,839 personal experience whatever it was is 1015 00:48:18,089 --> 00:48:13,839 being disparaged so they think so I 1016 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:18,099 think that's why the passion yeah sounds 1017 00:48:21,749 --> 00:48:19,930 like very reasonable explanation and it 1018 00:48:23,779 --> 00:48:21,759 certainly rings true with a lot of my 1019 00:48:26,009 --> 00:48:23,789 encounters with people they all have 1020 00:48:27,539 --> 00:48:26,019 often kind of berate me with some 1021 00:48:31,289 --> 00:48:27,549 evidence and then kind of eventually 1022 00:48:32,819 --> 00:48:31,299 fall back onto that they saw a UFO fly 1023 00:48:34,469 --> 00:48:32,829 over their car or whatever and that 1024 00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:34,479 there was no way I could possibly 1025 00:48:40,650 --> 00:48:38,049 convince them otherwise and so yeah it 1026 00:48:43,499 --> 00:48:40,660 was basically if I persisted then it was 1027 00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:43,509 like I was calling them liers so they 1028 00:48:49,289 --> 00:48:46,559 tended to be a bit reactive against that 1029 00:48:49,770 --> 00:48:49,299 sure that's why I guess the James Fox 1030 00:48:55,230 --> 00:48:49,780 feel 1031 00:48:57,210 --> 00:48:55,240 I know what I saw is is was a good title 1032 00:48:57,870 --> 00:48:57,220 but that's the one isn't it I know what 1033 00:49:00,390 --> 00:48:57,880 I saw 1034 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:00,400 yeah I don't know one yeah I think so 1035 00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:01,770 anyway 1036 00:49:06,510 --> 00:49:04,150 so unless it be a very interesting 1037 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:06,520 conversation what are you what are you 1038 00:49:09,780 --> 00:49:08,050 working on now what's coming up next for 1039 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:09,790 you down the pipe 1040 00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:12,570 gosh lots of different things I'm 1041 00:49:18,810 --> 00:49:16,000 continuing to appear as contributor on 1042 00:49:22,290 --> 00:49:18,820 various TV shows but I'm also actually 1043 00:49:26,730 --> 00:49:22,300 trying to develop and create some shows 1044 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:26,740 myself so that I have more control over 1045 00:49:34,530 --> 00:49:30,610 the overall look and feel and content of 1046 00:49:37,230 --> 00:49:34,540 the show so so I'm doing some writing 1047 00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:37,240 and development work with production 1048 00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:39,520 companies and networks I also 1049 00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:42,760 occasionally get outside of this subject 1050 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:45,310 so I've written for example a couple of 1051 00:49:52,610 --> 00:49:48,370 sci-fi novels my most recent book was 1052 00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:52,620 actually a thriller about terrorism and 1053 00:49:58,890 --> 00:49:55,720 intelligence work and special forces so 1054 00:50:01,560 --> 00:49:58,900 so again nothing to do with UFOs or the 1055 00:50:04,590 --> 00:50:01,570 unexplained I guess I have my finger in 1056 00:50:06,330 --> 00:50:04,600 a lot of pies so what's going to be 1057 00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:06,340 different about your your show that 1058 00:50:10,610 --> 00:50:08,800 you're you're trying to develop what's 1059 00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:10,620 the difference tone you will be taking 1060 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:14,800 I'd like to bridge I'd like to bridge 1061 00:50:22,590 --> 00:50:18,490 the the ufology with the science a 1062 00:50:26,490 --> 00:50:22,600 little more they think and you know just 1063 00:50:28,350 --> 00:50:26,500 ground it a little more in well firstly 1064 00:50:31,470 --> 00:50:28,360 is this possible and secondly if it's 1065 00:50:33,870 --> 00:50:31,480 possible how would it work not not just 1066 00:50:35,580 --> 00:50:33,880 here's another case I mean I think we've 1067 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:35,590 all seen those TV shows where people run 1068 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:38,890 around and you know point in the sky or 1069 00:50:42,180 --> 00:50:40,450 whatever it's the sort of youthful 1070 00:50:44,370 --> 00:50:42,190 logical equivalent of the the ghost 1071 00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:44,380 shows where where everyone's like what 1072 00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:46,990 was that what was that yeah I don't want 1073 00:50:50,610 --> 00:50:48,760 it I'm you know there are probably some 1074 00:50:53,850 --> 00:50:50,620 very good shows like that but that's not 1075 00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:53,860 the show I want to make yeah so so I 1076 00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:57,040 want to I want to to explore bridging 1077 00:51:03,240 --> 00:50:59,520 that gap a little bit and actually 1078 00:51:05,370 --> 00:51:03,250 asking the next questions I mean 1079 00:51:08,850 --> 00:51:05,380 no point having a UFO show about is it 1080 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:08,860 real or not mmm because because you were 1081 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:11,110 only going to recreate the whole skeptic 1082 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:15,310 versus believer dogfight why not ask the 1083 00:51:21,090 --> 00:51:17,290 more interesting questions well look if 1084 00:51:22,410 --> 00:51:21,100 it is true what what next yeah that's a 1085 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:22,420 good question what is next 1086 00:51:29,820 --> 00:51:25,090 do we I guess you want to try to contact 1087 00:51:32,060 --> 00:51:29,830 them yes and them absolutely that's why 1088 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:32,070 my two favorite sci-fi movies are 1089 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:35,170 contact and arrival because now they 1090 00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:36,970 speak to the far more interesting 1091 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:40,540 questions about could we communicate and 1092 00:51:46,010 --> 00:51:42,970 if we could what would they have to to 1093 00:51:48,210 --> 00:51:46,020 tell us what would we teach each other 1094 00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:48,220 yeah sounds fascinating 1095 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:50,590 I'm just going back to your like your 1096 00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:53,170 work at the mo D like some people say 1097 00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:55,750 you exaggerated your role at the mo D is 1098 00:52:00,600 --> 00:51:58,690 there like some reason why people are 1099 00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:00,610 saying things like that with a you know 1100 00:52:04,620 --> 00:52:02,800 people say are you there was that false 1101 00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:04,630 story where you left in a huff because 1102 00:52:08,370 --> 00:52:06,880 they cancelled the program that other 1103 00:52:11,010 --> 00:52:08,380 kind of like false things like that 1104 00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:11,020 floating around oh there's lots to false 1105 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:12,790 things floating around and it's it's 1106 00:52:19,110 --> 00:52:15,130 self-evidently not true because I I took 1107 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:19,120 early retirement in 2006 and yet the UFO 1108 00:52:26,460 --> 00:52:23,050 program wasn't terminated till 2009 so 1109 00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:26,470 so that you know demonstrably false I 1110 00:52:32,130 --> 00:52:29,860 think where where the problem lies is is 1111 00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:32,140 that all sorts of things get written 1112 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:33,910 about me that I don't really have much 1113 00:52:44,220 --> 00:52:40,330 control over so for example I worked for 1114 00:52:46,740 --> 00:52:44,230 the Ministry of Defense but one or two 1115 00:52:49,470 --> 00:52:46,750 people in writing about that have said 1116 00:52:51,210 --> 00:52:49,480 particularly overseas conference 1117 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:51,220 organizers where something maybe gets 1118 00:52:57,390 --> 00:52:53,650 lost in translation that I was the 1119 00:52:58,340 --> 00:52:57,400 Minister of death maybe that's an easy 1120 00:53:01,410 --> 00:52:58,350 mistake to make 1121 00:53:04,410 --> 00:53:01,420 particularly with with different 1122 00:53:08,070 --> 00:53:04,420 languages or maybe not I don't get to 1123 00:53:11,430 --> 00:53:08,080 see all that stuff so I can't I can't 1124 00:53:16,770 --> 00:53:11,440 police it and I can't correct it there 1125 00:53:19,020 --> 00:53:16,780 there was another point that got made 1126 00:53:22,380 --> 00:53:19,030 you know some so some people some people 1127 00:53:25,740 --> 00:53:22,390 say some people in the UFO community try 1128 00:53:28,290 --> 00:53:25,750 to use me some some people so therefore 1129 00:53:32,180 --> 00:53:28,300 we're depending on where you sit on this 1130 00:53:36,270 --> 00:53:32,190 belief spectrum I have had people try to 1131 00:53:39,870 --> 00:53:36,280 over exaggerate my rattle and I have had 1132 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:39,880 people try to underplay and diminish my 1133 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:44,650 roll now here's his one example of of 1134 00:53:52,740 --> 00:53:48,490 the latter I use in my media interviews 1135 00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:52,750 the the phrase yeah I ran the UFO 1136 00:54:01,320 --> 00:53:58,240 program or the UFO project because the 1137 00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:01,330 actual situation was that unlike the 1138 00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,280 United States Air Force where they gave 1139 00:54:08,490 --> 00:54:04,960 it a project named Blue Book 1140 00:54:10,830 --> 00:54:08,500 we in the UK didn't have that we simply 1141 00:54:13,350 --> 00:54:10,840 said that it was work embedded in a 1142 00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:13,360 particular Directorate in the Ministry 1143 00:54:17,970 --> 00:54:15,280 of Defence and over the years that 1144 00:54:19,670 --> 00:54:17,980 changed well as you could imagine if I 1145 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:19,680 started talking to the media about 1146 00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:23,410 Secretariat air staff to a or or defense 1147 00:54:29,370 --> 00:54:26,800 secretary at 8 or Directorate of air 1148 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:29,380 staff or any any number of these other 1149 00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:32,770 things it would be meaningless so so I 1150 00:54:39,540 --> 00:54:37,270 use I use a kind of conversational does 1151 00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:39,550 what it says on the tin shorthand 1152 00:54:45,810 --> 00:54:41,950 well I investigated UFOs for them I ran 1153 00:54:48,180 --> 00:54:45,820 their UFO program and then somebody said 1154 00:54:50,130 --> 00:54:48,190 to the ministry defense well what was 1155 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:50,140 this UFO program and they said well we 1156 00:54:55,020 --> 00:54:52,930 didn't have a UFO pregnant technically 1157 00:55:00,240 --> 00:54:55,030 that's true because it never got called 1158 00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:00,250 anything but there is and it's somewhere 1159 00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:03,640 in the UK parliamentary record of 1160 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:06,310 proceedings Hansard a member of 1161 00:55:10,980 --> 00:55:08,650 parliament tried to clear this up by 1162 00:55:15,330 --> 00:55:10,990 asking what was mr. Nick Pope's job 1163 00:55:17,610 --> 00:55:15,340 between 99 1991 and 1994 and the answer 1164 00:55:20,010 --> 00:55:17,620 came back he was posted to a division 1165 00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:20,020 where his duties included investigating 1166 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:24,160 UFOs so so it's it's like as ever with 1167 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:26,170 the Internet the the answers in the 1168 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:30,490 middle yes I see this kind of in 1169 00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:33,010 inflation and or deflation of credential 1170 00:55:38,660 --> 00:55:35,470 all the time when people I told that 1171 00:55:41,550 --> 00:55:38,670 yeah some some people say I was the the 1172 00:55:42,930 --> 00:55:41,560 minister they look you know I was the 1173 00:55:45,450 --> 00:55:42,940 Secretary of State for Defence other 1174 00:55:48,780 --> 00:55:45,460 people imply I was the tea boy who 1175 00:55:52,109 --> 00:55:48,790 literally you know the made the tea and 1176 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:52,119 and did the filing of the papers so 1177 00:55:58,109 --> 00:55:54,010 indeed such a thing is done in these 1178 00:55:59,820 --> 00:55:58,119 days yeah so what what percentage of 1179 00:56:00,359 --> 00:55:59,830 your time did you actually spend on like 1180 00:56:02,609 --> 00:56:00,369 UFOs 1181 00:56:05,930 --> 00:56:02,619 stuff and what percentage on other stuff 1182 00:56:08,430 --> 00:56:05,940 in that 91 to 94 period almost 1183 00:56:12,750 --> 00:56:08,440 impossible to say I would put it 1184 00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:12,760 somewhere like somewhere between maybe 1185 00:56:23,870 --> 00:56:16,510 50 percent by the end of it my my other 1186 00:56:26,730 --> 00:56:23,880 duties covered things like actually 1187 00:56:29,370 --> 00:56:26,740 reading and then doing the security 1188 00:56:32,550 --> 00:56:29,380 clearance of books that had been written 1189 00:56:36,210 --> 00:56:32,560 about the Gulf War by people on the Air 1190 00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:36,220 Force side interesting and doing 1191 00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:37,390 wargames 1192 00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,390 where again on on the Air Force side now 1193 00:56:45,530 --> 00:56:42,640 I was a civilian but this this job was 1194 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:45,540 was to do with Royal Air Force matters 1195 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:49,090 so I we would do the war books and we 1196 00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:51,970 would do the war games I think I can say 1197 00:56:58,590 --> 00:56:53,680 what these things were called now things 1198 00:57:01,430 --> 00:56:58,600 things like Windex and SIMEX and purple 1199 00:57:04,980 --> 00:57:01,440 monarch and purple warrior these these 1200 00:57:08,250 --> 00:57:04,990 integrated war games that that we play 1201 00:57:11,099 --> 00:57:08,260 to exercise our our transition to war 1202 00:57:13,410 --> 00:57:11,109 and war rules so I did some of that I 1203 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:13,420 did some of the security clearance and 1204 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:17,710 vetting of of books that people had 1205 00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:20,050 written and I did the UFOs and it was I 1206 00:57:26,359 --> 00:57:23,950 think particularly later in that tour of 1207 00:57:30,210 --> 00:57:26,369 duty I think it was probably about 1208 00:57:32,550 --> 00:57:30,220 fifty-fifty with the UFO way but but 1209 00:57:35,220 --> 00:57:32,560 very difficult to say because because it 1210 00:57:38,790 --> 00:57:35,230 was events led I would have whole days 1211 00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:38,800 where no cases no new cases would come 1212 00:57:42,670 --> 00:57:40,720 in and I wouldn't be doing any UFO work 1213 00:57:44,500 --> 00:57:42,680 at all right 1214 00:57:48,030 --> 00:57:44,510 yeah it's not like they're on a schedule 1215 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:48,040 or anything you mentioned the Gulf there 1216 00:57:54,970 --> 00:57:51,530 and I think one thing about the the 1217 00:57:56,910 --> 00:57:54,980 recent stuff like gimbal and go fast and 1218 00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,920 stuff like that is that they mentioned 1219 00:58:03,120 --> 00:57:58,880 seeing them when they were in the Gulf 1220 00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:03,130 did you get reports from the military of 1221 00:58:10,900 --> 00:58:07,040 military pilots seeing UFOs in in the 1222 00:58:13,060 --> 00:58:10,910 Gulf not over not in the Gulf and 1223 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:13,070 certainly during the hostilities if we 1224 00:58:20,170 --> 00:58:15,170 did we would probably have thought well 1225 00:58:23,890 --> 00:58:20,180 it was triple-a and the other thing was 1226 00:58:26,650 --> 00:58:23,900 although we occasionally relax this our 1227 00:58:28,660 --> 00:58:26,660 terms of reference were limited to 1228 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:28,670 investigating sightings within the 1229 00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:33,730 United Kingdom Air Defense read hmm so 1230 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:36,800 if a pilot did see a UFO then like 1231 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:39,770 overseas a British military pilot where 1232 00:58:45,550 --> 00:58:43,010 would that report go to well they won 1233 00:58:47,350 --> 00:58:45,560 hopes would have reported it initially 1234 00:58:51,330 --> 00:58:47,360 as with most things in the military up 1235 00:58:54,250 --> 00:58:51,340 the chain of command and I hope that 1236 00:58:56,170 --> 00:58:54,260 that had those sightings taking place 1237 00:59:00,040 --> 00:58:56,180 they would have been forwarded back to 1238 00:59:02,890 --> 00:59:00,050 me and you know over the course of the 1239 00:59:06,030 --> 00:59:02,900 mo DS years of looking at this I think 1240 00:59:09,790 --> 00:59:06,040 we did have some sightings probably from 1241 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:09,800 Cyprus and Falkland Islands and places 1242 00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:12,010 but not not many not many 1243 00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:14,480 was there any cooperation with other 1244 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:18,110 countries like cross-referencing 1245 00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:21,530 databases for UFO sightings did you 1246 00:59:27,730 --> 00:59:24,110 share them with other countries very 1247 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:27,740 little and and that again was partly a 1248 00:59:35,380 --> 00:59:32,690 construct of our very narrowly defined 1249 00:59:37,620 --> 00:59:35,390 terms of reference and partly just I 1250 00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:37,630 think the difficulty in identifying 1251 00:59:42,190 --> 00:59:39,910 opposite numbers who were doing this 1252 00:59:44,350 --> 00:59:42,200 I've heard it suggested that the 1253 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:44,360 European Union or even the United 1254 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:46,970 Nations should take a role in this don't 1255 00:59:51,790 --> 00:59:48,410 know whether it would work or not I 1256 00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:51,800 don't think the UN want it but no there 1257 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:54,250 was very little there was very little 1258 00:59:58,930 --> 00:59:56,450 cooperation in 1259 01:00:01,420 --> 00:59:58,940 in my true believer moments I I 1260 01:00:04,420 --> 01:00:01,430 speculate that one reason for that is 1261 01:00:07,180 --> 01:00:04,430 that if if any of this is true in terms 1262 01:00:09,310 --> 01:00:07,190 of being extraterrestrial the nation 1263 01:00:11,980 --> 01:00:09,320 that first acquires that technology will 1264 01:00:14,590 --> 01:00:11,990 have a decisive strategic advantage and 1265 01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:14,600 and therefore even if you think there's 1266 01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:16,640 a vanishingly small chance of it being 1267 01:00:22,780 --> 01:00:19,850 true it's probably treated within 1268 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:22,790 government well it is I know firsthand 1269 01:00:29,230 --> 01:00:25,850 from the UK it's treated as a low 1270 01:00:31,780 --> 01:00:29,240 probability high impact scenario and so 1271 01:00:34,420 --> 01:00:31,790 the thinking probably is we wouldn't 1272 01:00:37,330 --> 01:00:34,430 necessarily want to share this even even 1273 01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:37,340 with our allies right to keep it to 1274 01:00:43,930 --> 01:00:40,910 themselves so they can make their flying 1275 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:43,940 saucers and anti-gravity drives yes 1276 01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:46,970 indeed yeah and and when one looks we 1277 01:00:51,130 --> 01:00:49,040 gosh we could do a whole second show on 1278 01:00:54,370 --> 01:00:51,140 this but when one looks at those those 1279 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:54,380 research papers that the DIA told 1280 01:00:59,830 --> 01:00:56,650 Congress they produced under the a tip 1281 01:01:01,540 --> 01:00:59,840 program it takes you to some fairly 1282 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:01,550 interesting territory in terms of 1283 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:04,610 wormholes and walk drive and such like 1284 01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:07,130 yeah how many obviously if it is true 1285 01:01:11,380 --> 01:01:09,200 then that's some pretty you know 1286 01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:11,390 advanced technology with some very 1287 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:13,310 interesting implications but as you say 1288 01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:17,810 probably a topic for another show yes 1289 01:01:23,110 --> 01:01:21,200 and of course my you know final thought 1290 01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:23,120 on that I guess my late father was an 1291 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:24,830 aeronautical engineer and he always used 1292 01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:27,050 to say well theoretical theoretical 1293 01:01:31,020 --> 01:01:28,610 physics is fine but someone's got to be 1294 01:01:35,860 --> 01:01:31,030 able to actually build something yes 1295 01:01:37,690 --> 01:01:35,870 yeah and there is that sometimes I I say 1296 01:01:39,940 --> 01:01:37,700 I'm not a scientist I'm certainly not an 1297 01:01:41,860 --> 01:01:39,950 engineer either but some reading some of 1298 01:01:44,050 --> 01:01:41,870 this material you can't help but think 1299 01:01:47,110 --> 01:01:44,060 there's a maybe a disconnect between 1300 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:47,120 this and actually putting something 1301 01:01:50,860 --> 01:01:49,010 together physically and building it and 1302 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:50,870 saying here it is yeah I think it's all 1303 01:01:56,500 --> 01:01:53,090 very well saying a wormhole is possible 1304 01:01:58,690 --> 01:01:56,510 but yes mines far sharper than mine 1305 01:02:03,130 --> 01:01:58,700 we'll have to pronounce on on that 1306 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:03,140 indeed all right well thank you very 1307 01:02:06,670 --> 01:02:04,250 much Nick this has been a very 1308 01:02:08,020 --> 01:02:06,680 interesting conversation and I think 1309 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:08,030 we've probably cleared up some things 1310 01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:09,050 for some people a lot of questions 1311 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:10,160 people had 1312 01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:13,130 and and probably created a whole bunch 1313 01:02:18,910 --> 01:02:15,890 of people's minds we see we shall see 1314 01:02:21,550 --> 01:02:18,920 what what the reaction is goes like I 1315 01:02:22,990 --> 01:02:21,560 said there was there was a lot of 1316 01:02:25,690 --> 01:02:23,000 different opinions there on the on the 1317 01:02:27,490 --> 01:02:25,700 internet about you sure I'll well when 1318 01:02:29,170 --> 01:02:27,500 when you put it on Twitter and I guess 1319 01:02:29,530 --> 01:02:29,180 I'll I'll do the same if you send me a 1320 01:02:32,620 --> 01:02:29,540 link 1321 01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:32,630 I guess we'll we'll see what people 1322 01:02:39,070 --> 01:02:35,320 think indeed it will be very interesting 1323 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:39,080 all right well thank you very much okay